1 00:00:14,830 --> 00:00:12,490 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:14,840 with Graham Nichols well both those 3 00:00:20,170 --> 00:00:17,170 people talk about a much more rich 4 00:00:22,929 --> 00:00:20,180 spiritual landscape that they feel like 5 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:22,939 they've traversed and come come back and 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:24,560 tell us about and they'll tell you about 7 00:00:29,260 --> 00:00:27,050 lower levels they'll tell you about 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:29,270 different kinds of beings including what 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:32,090 we would call evil or demonic beings and 10 00:00:36,970 --> 00:00:34,850 then hierarchical beings up to things 11 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:36,980 that we would associate with a lot of 12 00:00:40,299 --> 00:00:38,510 religious traditions or they'll tell you 13 00:00:42,220 --> 00:00:40,309 directly that they're related to some 14 00:00:44,770 --> 00:00:42,230 religious traditions and I don't know 15 00:00:46,390 --> 00:00:44,780 how we can really have such a wall and 16 00:00:48,910 --> 00:00:46,400 say well you know it's all gonna be 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:48,920 explained I don't feel there's a wall I 18 00:00:53,260 --> 00:00:51,410 feel that I explored a lot of those 19 00:00:55,270 --> 00:00:53,270 kinds of ideas but not just me 20 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:55,280 personally also the people I work with 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:00:57,770 it's not that I've ever dismissed it 22 00:01:02,110 --> 00:01:00,050 it's more than I've tried to say what is 23 00:01:05,679 --> 00:01:02,120 this really what's going on and try to 24 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:05,689 really dig beyond the preconceptions and 25 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:07,790 step outside of the box of it and say 26 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:10,130 well you know what might actually be 27 00:01:15,370 --> 00:01:12,650 going on rather than just going with the 28 00:01:19,510 --> 00:01:15,380 pre pre assumption that oh it's it's all 29 00:01:20,649 --> 00:01:19,520 spiritual and demons and angels and that 30 00:01:35,770 --> 00:01:20,659 kind of thing 31 00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:37,999 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 32 00:01:42,109 --> 00:01:39,600 controversial science with leading 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:42,119 researchers thinkers and their critics 34 00:01:45,740 --> 00:01:44,130 I'm your host Alexei Karras and on this 35 00:01:47,919 --> 00:01:45,750 episode of skeptic oh we're going to 36 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:47,929 return to the topic of out-of-body 37 00:01:52,339 --> 00:01:50,130 experience as you just heard in the 38 00:01:54,499 --> 00:01:52,349 introduction Graham Nichols is joining 39 00:01:57,319 --> 00:01:54,509 us again and he has a fascinating take 40 00:01:59,839 --> 00:01:57,329 on not only what this phenomena is and 41 00:02:02,569 --> 00:01:59,849 how we can prove that it's real but also 42 00:02:05,289 --> 00:02:02,579 some very concrete advice about how you 43 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:05,299 can experience an out-of-body experience 44 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:08,970 yourself anyway here's my interview with 45 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:12,390 Graham Nichols today we welcome back to 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:15,450 skeptic OH out-of-body experience expert 47 00:02:19,990 --> 00:02:18,090 Graham Nichols Graham is here to talk 48 00:02:23,990 --> 00:02:20,000 about his fascinating new book 49 00:02:25,699 --> 00:02:24,000 navigating the out-of-body experience hi 50 00:02:28,430 --> 00:02:25,709 Graham it's so great to have you back on 51 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:28,440 skeptic oh hi Alex it's great take me 52 00:02:35,089 --> 00:02:32,250 back on so here we are and I was looking 53 00:02:36,890 --> 00:02:35,099 over your new book fascinating 54 00:02:40,430 --> 00:02:36,900 fascinating and one of the things that 55 00:02:43,699 --> 00:02:40,440 really struck me is on one hand it's a 56 00:02:45,229 --> 00:02:43,709 very practical book and it says right in 57 00:02:46,699 --> 00:02:45,239 there that the aim of this book is to 58 00:02:48,890 --> 00:02:46,709 help you have an out-of-body experience 59 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:48,900 which is fascinating and we want to talk 60 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:50,190 about that because you really take a 61 00:02:53,839 --> 00:02:52,530 rather novel approach to kind of 62 00:02:56,180 --> 00:02:53,849 throwing a whole bunch of different 63 00:02:58,940 --> 00:02:56,190 techniques at folks and you actually 64 00:03:02,599 --> 00:02:58,950 have a really sound scientific basis for 65 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:02,609 why you think that varied approach might 66 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:04,889 work for people but at the same time and 67 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:05,910 this is the other part of the book I 68 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:08,310 want to talk about the book is very much 69 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:10,530 about the science of out-of-body 70 00:03:17,509 --> 00:03:13,950 experience and the science related 71 00:03:19,309 --> 00:03:17,519 questions that it raises so so first 72 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:19,319 maybe you can say am I getting that 73 00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:20,730 right are there really kind of these two 74 00:03:26,539 --> 00:03:24,150 aspects to the book sure yeah very much 75 00:03:30,379 --> 00:03:26,549 so I wanted to move it away from the 76 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:30,389 heavily esoteric angle that's common in 77 00:03:35,750 --> 00:03:33,000 a lot of books and I also really wanted 78 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:35,760 to base the techniques on something 79 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:38,310 solid and just go out there and see what 80 00:03:43,729 --> 00:03:41,150 actually works rather than just 81 00:03:46,589 --> 00:03:43,739 repeating what so many books and so many 82 00:03:49,589 --> 00:03:46,599 other people have been saying for you 83 00:03:52,349 --> 00:03:49,599 over a hundred years I wanted to see if 84 00:03:54,569 --> 00:03:52,359 well does this stuff really actually do 85 00:03:57,449 --> 00:03:54,579 what people say and do we really have 86 00:03:59,250 --> 00:03:57,459 silver cords and energy bodies and all 87 00:04:01,619 --> 00:03:59,260 of these kinds of things that are talked 88 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:01,629 about so commonly so yeah that was 89 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:04,450 really the aim okay good so I tell you 90 00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:06,280 what let's leave aside for a second 91 00:04:12,659 --> 00:04:09,310 these scientific questions about OBEs 92 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:12,669 including whether they really exist 93 00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:13,840 whether there really is such a thing 94 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:15,040 because I guess that would be one of the 95 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:17,620 first scientific questions and also I 96 00:04:21,749 --> 00:04:19,180 think we should leave aside for a minute 97 00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:21,759 the philosophical questions about what 98 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:23,680 what this would might mean for 99 00:04:28,529 --> 00:04:26,530 consciousness materialism questions to 100 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:28,539 the soul all that kind of stuff and 101 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:30,570 let's talk about the practical 102 00:04:34,469 --> 00:04:33,370 applications because I think that's 103 00:04:37,890 --> 00:04:34,479 where a lot of people are going to be 104 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:37,900 coming at this from tell us about your 105 00:04:43,020 --> 00:04:40,570 approach to helping people have these 106 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:43,030 experiences well I think with my 107 00:04:47,850 --> 00:04:46,120 approach as well as the scientific thing 108 00:04:50,909 --> 00:04:47,860 stuff that I've already mentioned I 109 00:04:52,830 --> 00:04:50,919 think another thing that I really was 110 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:52,840 noticing more and more as I work with 111 00:04:57,870 --> 00:04:55,060 people over time is that people are very 112 00:05:00,629 --> 00:04:57,880 different and that some people will have 113 00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:00,639 particular skills in a certain area and 114 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:03,039 other people will have completely 115 00:05:07,469 --> 00:05:05,110 different skills I mean it's it's yeah 116 00:05:09,330 --> 00:05:07,479 you seem to take this NLP approach the 117 00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:09,340 neuro linguistic programming now you can 118 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:10,840 which I thought was fascinating 119 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:13,570 tell us how you how you came to to 120 00:05:19,710 --> 00:05:16,150 include that in this because it just 121 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:19,720 made sense really this idea of modeling 122 00:05:25,350 --> 00:05:23,409 what someone actually does when when 123 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:25,360 when they're having the experience and 124 00:05:29,060 --> 00:05:27,130 then seeing if I can apply it to 125 00:05:31,529 --> 00:05:29,070 different people and then seeing maybe 126 00:05:33,779 --> 00:05:31,539 more visual people might work better 127 00:05:35,850 --> 00:05:33,789 with a with more of a visual technique 128 00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:35,860 and another person because I was just 129 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:38,020 finding that constantly when I was 130 00:05:42,390 --> 00:05:39,940 working with someone I'd offer them a 131 00:05:46,469 --> 00:05:42,400 technique and and they might say oh I 132 00:05:48,540 --> 00:05:46,479 can't visualize or oh I can't I am NOT 133 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:48,550 very physical I have various health 134 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:50,530 issues or or whatever all different 135 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:52,210 things would come up when I'm working 136 00:05:57,689 --> 00:05:54,370 with them and it just became apparent to 137 00:05:59,550 --> 00:05:57,699 me well fit the techniques to the person 138 00:06:00,460 --> 00:05:59,560 rather than trying to fit the person to 139 00:06:03,490 --> 00:06:00,470 the techniques 140 00:06:05,740 --> 00:06:03,500 great great so you know just for folks 141 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:05,750 who maybe aren't totally up to speed on 142 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:07,610 that it's as you mentioned there you 143 00:06:12,490 --> 00:06:09,710 know some people are just drawn to let's 144 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:12,500 say auditory stimulation you know these 145 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:14,420 are the people who like to listen to 146 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:16,610 music more and can really feel a 147 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:18,170 connection with it you know that would 148 00:06:21,370 --> 00:06:19,820 be kind of one side and then some people 149 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:21,380 obviously are more visual and maybe 150 00:06:25,690 --> 00:06:22,970 they're more of a dreamer kind of type 151 00:06:28,030 --> 00:06:25,700 and and so that's what in reading the 152 00:06:29,830 --> 00:06:28,040 book you've just kind of say go with it 153 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:29,840 go with whatever your kind of natural 154 00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:31,970 inclination is because as you've 155 00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:34,220 discovered in your auto body experience 156 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:37,340 work all three of all those sensory 157 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:39,230 modalities are represented in the 158 00:06:43,540 --> 00:06:41,210 experience so it's not like an either/or 159 00:06:45,550 --> 00:06:43,550 thing you can just kind of emphasize one 160 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:45,560 or the other two as a starting point am 161 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:48,170 I getting that part right yeah totally I 162 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:51,530 I think I think it is a it is a factor 163 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:53,930 that you can really go with with the 164 00:06:58,990 --> 00:06:56,570 person's major skill or major sensory 165 00:07:01,540 --> 00:06:59,000 focus but then also bringing or bring in 166 00:07:04,030 --> 00:07:01,550 all the other senses as well so it's 167 00:07:06,460 --> 00:07:04,040 this it's looking at the person as a 168 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:06,470 whole look at a complete approach that 169 00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:08,120 are very personalized approach I mean 170 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:10,400 even bringing in emotions and things 171 00:07:15,340 --> 00:07:12,650 like that you know using an emotional 172 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:15,350 focus such as another person working 173 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:17,110 with another person so there's this 174 00:07:21,970 --> 00:07:19,490 building of connection which again is 175 00:07:24,250 --> 00:07:21,980 backed up with telepathy research and 176 00:07:27,190 --> 00:07:24,260 things like that there's a strong link 177 00:07:29,290 --> 00:07:27,200 between individuals and you know that 178 00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:29,300 can that can really help with the 179 00:07:33,730 --> 00:07:31,310 success rate of someone learning as well 180 00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:33,740 so it's it's all about looking at the 181 00:07:37,930 --> 00:07:35,480 science looking at the individual and 182 00:07:41,010 --> 00:07:37,940 and really working out the best approach 183 00:07:43,750 --> 00:07:41,020 for that person you know Graham another 184 00:07:45,730 --> 00:07:43,760 aspect of your technique that seemed 185 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:45,740 interesting to me and maybe you want to 186 00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:47,590 talk about is this idea of immersion 187 00:07:51,909 --> 00:07:50,300 what are you what are you driving at 188 00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:51,919 there and how did you come up with that 189 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:55,430 I suppose in an in a sense it came from 190 00:08:02,590 --> 00:07:58,250 this hypnosis idea again I think back in 191 00:08:05,260 --> 00:08:02,600 the late 90s about 98 I was working on 192 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:05,270 the first of the immersive structures 193 00:08:10,779 --> 00:08:08,090 that I built specifically to induce 194 00:08:13,510 --> 00:08:10,789 ovaries and tell folks a little bit 195 00:08:14,290 --> 00:08:13,520 about that that's set up in that project 196 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:14,300 because I think 197 00:08:21,550 --> 00:08:18,050 fascinating well the first structure I 198 00:08:25,149 --> 00:08:21,560 ever built was called epicene and it was 199 00:08:28,029 --> 00:08:25,159 essentially a steel structure like a 200 00:08:31,390 --> 00:08:28,039 like a kind of cage that was designed to 201 00:08:33,790 --> 00:08:31,400 suspend a platform a kind of bed in in 202 00:08:36,579 --> 00:08:33,800 the center and that was suspended by 203 00:08:39,579 --> 00:08:36,589 steel wire so it was very the way I was 204 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:39,589 almost invisible so when someone walked 205 00:08:44,650 --> 00:08:41,529 in they would almost see just this 206 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:44,660 floating platform essentially they would 207 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:47,480 get on to that and it would flatten out 208 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:51,649 and feel very much like floating and 209 00:08:57,519 --> 00:08:55,220 then there would be some of this the 210 00:09:02,170 --> 00:08:57,529 early version of my infra liminal sound 211 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:02,180 technology and also a spoken hypnotic 212 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:04,610 induction so it had it had a few 213 00:09:10,630 --> 00:09:07,760 different levels to it so the idea was 214 00:09:13,509 --> 00:09:10,640 that using all of those senses and the 215 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:13,519 idea of suggesting to the person that 216 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:14,930 they were floating putting them into 217 00:09:21,250 --> 00:09:19,370 that context would increase the the 218 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:21,260 chances that it would trigger something 219 00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:23,510 unconsciously 'only lead to the 220 00:09:28,750 --> 00:09:26,390 out-of-body experience and I found that 221 00:09:31,389 --> 00:09:28,760 very quickly with the infra liminal 222 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:31,399 sound that the vibrational state became 223 00:09:37,420 --> 00:09:34,970 very very common up to 90 plus percent 224 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:37,430 of people were getting the vibrational 225 00:09:42,670 --> 00:09:40,310 state and then a certain percentage of 226 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:42,680 people beyond that would go into going 227 00:09:48,190 --> 00:09:45,110 to either some kind of remote 228 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:48,200 perceptions such as hearing or 229 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:50,570 perceiving things a distance seeing 230 00:09:54,430 --> 00:09:52,370 things a distance or the full 231 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:54,440 out-of-body experience well that those 232 00:10:00,490 --> 00:09:56,930 are just some astounding figures 233 00:10:02,380 --> 00:10:00,500 percentage-wise especially in a pretty 234 00:10:03,310 --> 00:10:02,390 controlled experiment in terms of 235 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:03,320 everyone's going through the same 236 00:10:06,670 --> 00:10:04,850 experience you can ask them for and 237 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:06,680 after that's pretty impressive it's very 238 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:08,930 impressive let's let's talk a little bit 239 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:11,510 about science and I want to start out 240 00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:13,040 with one of the things you said in the 241 00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:14,959 book that just struck man oh if there's 242 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:16,880 anything wrong with it but you say the 243 00:10:20,439 --> 00:10:18,769 design of your techniques is drawn 244 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:20,449 primarily from the science of 245 00:10:26,110 --> 00:10:22,730 parapsychology you want to tell folks 246 00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:26,120 how specifically parapsychology research 247 00:10:30,580 --> 00:10:27,740 has kind of 248 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:30,590 informed some of these decisions you've 249 00:10:36,060 --> 00:10:32,000 made and techniques you've developed 250 00:10:40,060 --> 00:10:36,070 well I think I think they've given this 251 00:10:41,890 --> 00:10:40,070 underlying inspiration in in terms of 252 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:41,900 looking at people like Michael Persinger 253 00:10:50,110 --> 00:10:45,220 z' research with the god helmet or or 254 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:50,120 the research of Robert Monroe or you 255 00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:52,370 know even my work with Rupert Sheldrake 256 00:10:57,310 --> 00:10:54,860 and the idea of telepathy and the 257 00:11:00,970 --> 00:10:57,320 emotional connection between people and 258 00:11:05,290 --> 00:11:00,980 just thinking about this idea of is an 259 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:05,300 out-of-body experience actually a psy 260 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:08,150 experience when all of the all of these 261 00:11:15,220 --> 00:11:10,610 senses are activated if you like so if 262 00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:15,230 you think about it in terms of a psychic 263 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:17,360 might describe that there clairaudient 264 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:21,050 or that they're clairvoyant or whatever 265 00:11:25,330 --> 00:11:23,150 they'll you tell they're often have one 266 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:25,340 sense of sense that's more developed 267 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:26,690 than another and they're their 268 00:11:30,730 --> 00:11:28,220 information will come through in that 269 00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:30,740 way a few of my friends who are mediums 270 00:11:35,740 --> 00:11:33,440 often talk in that kind of context so 271 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:35,750 that gave me the the idea that maybe 272 00:11:40,410 --> 00:11:37,310 what we're dealing with is an 273 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:40,420 out-of-body experience is actually where 274 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:42,710 those psychic functions are all 275 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:45,220 activated so that it's like a complete 276 00:11:50,980 --> 00:11:47,480 multi-sensory experience because in a 277 00:11:53,260 --> 00:11:50,990 way I I don't we're obviously not really 278 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:53,270 experiencing senses when we're out in 279 00:11:57,820 --> 00:11:55,640 that situation because I mean we're not 280 00:12:00,280 --> 00:11:57,830 we're not seeing light through lenses in 281 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:00,290 a physical body kind of context there 282 00:12:06,810 --> 00:12:02,750 must be something else at play so it 283 00:12:09,070 --> 00:12:06,820 seems to me that we're almost 284 00:12:11,230 --> 00:12:09,080 translating the information that's 285 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:11,240 coming through in whatever form that 286 00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:13,550 might be and as we're translating that 287 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:15,920 information we do it into something 288 00:12:21,370 --> 00:12:18,020 that's familiar or understandable and 289 00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:21,380 that's more of a why it's in a kind of 290 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:23,660 sensory context I think but I think 291 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:26,330 that's also why one sense can be more 292 00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:28,040 developed than another or maybe one 293 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:30,620 sense won't be active at all things like 294 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:32,780 that that's fantastic 295 00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:34,130 speculation I mean it's really 296 00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,980 interesting at the same time I just I 297 00:12:40,210 --> 00:12:38,480 feel challenged in a way you know I 298 00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:40,220 remember interviewing Raymond Moody and 299 00:12:42,730 --> 00:12:41,240 he we talked about 300 00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:42,740 near-death experience and you'd say it's 301 00:12:46,630 --> 00:12:44,660 pre-scientific pre-scientific aunt used 302 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:46,640 to always rub me you know in the way 303 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:48,890 that dr. Raymond moody can kind of grind 304 00:12:53,290 --> 00:12:51,050 a little bit on stuff where he's in the 305 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:53,300 middle of something and can't just come 306 00:12:59,380 --> 00:12:55,850 out and say it but in thinking about 307 00:13:02,880 --> 00:12:59,390 that I I wonder if we are pre-scientific 308 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:02,890 or maybe even post scientific because 309 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:05,690 when you talk about those things and you 310 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:08,170 talk about well that maybe we are 311 00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:10,490 reinterpreting what impressions were 312 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:12,560 getting and putting them in sensory 313 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:14,930 terms so that they can be reintegrated 314 00:13:21,340 --> 00:13:18,190 into our experience isn't that all 315 00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:21,350 necessarily by definition outside of 316 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:23,120 what we can really wrap our arms around 317 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:25,430 in terms of measuring in terms of 318 00:13:30,220 --> 00:13:27,770 science I mean now we can't even 319 00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:30,230 identify these variables let alone 320 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:32,360 pretend that we're controlling for them 321 00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:34,670 in some kind of experiment don't we have 322 00:13:40,449 --> 00:13:37,580 a fundamental problem with science as 323 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:40,459 soon as we step into this realm of 324 00:13:45,699 --> 00:13:43,490 consciousness beyond our body um I think 325 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:45,709 I have to agree with you to a certain 326 00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:48,290 degree I think yeah we are we are in a 327 00:13:53,079 --> 00:13:50,300 situation where at this point in time 328 00:13:55,870 --> 00:13:53,089 we're not quite there for sure this and 329 00:13:58,690 --> 00:13:55,880 there's so little OBE research that's 330 00:14:00,490 --> 00:13:58,700 actually been done I think this there's 331 00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:00,500 still so much potential here to look 332 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:02,660 into all of those those kinds of 333 00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:05,000 questions I think what I was meaning 334 00:14:09,250 --> 00:14:07,279 more when I was talking about that 335 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:09,260 inspiration and and those those 336 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:12,170 speculations as you say it's more in the 337 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:14,540 sense of looking at it in a practical 338 00:14:21,790 --> 00:14:18,410 way I think I was I was thinking well 339 00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:21,800 how how can we find ways to enhance all 340 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:24,470 of this in in the sense of allowing 341 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:27,410 someone to get more successful results 342 00:14:31,569 --> 00:14:28,910 and I think that's what I meant when I 343 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:31,579 talked about the science underlying what 344 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:35,680 I was what I was exploring in terms of 345 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:38,360 looking at it to understand exactly what 346 00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:40,730 the experience is I think we really need 347 00:14:47,139 --> 00:14:44,000 to do some research I think it's it's 348 00:14:50,730 --> 00:14:47,149 crazy that there's so there's so little 349 00:14:53,439 --> 00:14:50,740 that's been done and unfortunately I 350 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:53,449 haven't really even come across many 351 00:14:58,360 --> 00:14:55,130 scientists who are open 352 00:15:01,180 --> 00:14:58,370 to doing research in this area I've 353 00:15:03,790 --> 00:15:01,190 spoken to a whole a whole range of 354 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:03,800 scientists since our last interview in 355 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:06,890 fact about doing some some veridical 356 00:15:12,910 --> 00:15:09,890 research in doing some research in this 357 00:15:15,550 --> 00:15:12,920 area and and most of them we'll all of 358 00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:15,560 them have even been too busy with other 359 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:18,560 things or or not had had the resources 360 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:21,110 or whatever so it's a real area that's 361 00:15:26,890 --> 00:15:24,560 just under explored and and that that 362 00:15:29,140 --> 00:15:26,900 amazes me because when you read books 363 00:15:31,450 --> 00:15:29,150 that are exploring the science on the 364 00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:31,460 topic they seem to go back to Robert 365 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:34,100 Monroe and start talking about the 1960s 366 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:37,430 and Charles tartes research and it's you 367 00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:39,890 know the miss the miss said experiment 368 00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:42,380 and things like that it's it's it's 369 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:45,110 crazy really you make a good point 370 00:15:49,780 --> 00:15:48,010 because as you're alluding to 371 00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:49,790 fundamentally it's a very simple 372 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:52,580 experiment on one level if we ignore the 373 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:54,850 kind of deeper philosophical materialism 374 00:16:00,430 --> 00:15:56,690 consciousness kind of things and just 375 00:16:03,370 --> 00:16:00,440 say okay are you able to identify 376 00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:03,380 something outside your window or fly a 377 00:16:09,070 --> 00:16:05,600 thousand miles away and and see it I 378 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:09,080 mean these are high school level kind of 379 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:11,510 or lower level kind of experiments that 380 00:16:16,510 --> 00:16:14,420 can be done right sure yeah I I think I 381 00:16:19,330 --> 00:16:16,520 think your guest a couple of weeks ago 382 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:19,340 made a really good point about that of 383 00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:22,730 he he's trying to work in a in a 384 00:16:28,060 --> 00:16:24,950 spontaneous sense looking at the 385 00:16:30,730 --> 00:16:28,070 spontaneous experiences and and I really 386 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:30,740 agree with that that notion because I 387 00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:33,890 think that historically maybe the 388 00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:36,500 problems that have arisen with doing any 389 00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,540 kind of OBE research is literally just 390 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:41,360 the controllability in the context of 391 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:42,800 putting someone in the lab and saying 392 00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:46,100 okay now just do this you know on tap 393 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:49,300 and you know even people of Robert 394 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:52,760 Monroe's experience found that difficult 395 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:55,460 to do or there's certain limitations on 396 00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,130 doing that and the depth to which the 397 00:17:03,190 --> 00:17:00,800 experience can go etc whereas if it's 398 00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:03,200 done where the experience happens in a 399 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:06,560 spontaneous context and then that's rien 400 00:17:10,659 --> 00:17:08,569 de afterwards by 401 00:17:13,449 --> 00:17:10,669 people who can verify what took place I 402 00:17:15,579 --> 00:17:13,459 think that's that's a stronger context 403 00:17:17,169 --> 00:17:15,589 if you're an interesting person to ask 404 00:17:19,509 --> 00:17:17,179 since you have both the personal 405 00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:19,519 experience with this as well as 406 00:17:24,850 --> 00:17:22,579 experience in helping and and and 407 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:24,860 working with so many other people who've 408 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:27,970 achieved this out-of-body experience 409 00:17:35,049 --> 00:17:31,730 what do you think is going on as it 410 00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:35,059 relates specifically to this mind brain 411 00:17:41,549 --> 00:17:37,940 thing which as we've explored on this 412 00:17:43,930 --> 00:17:41,559 show many many times seems to be clearly 413 00:17:45,610 --> 00:17:43,940 under attack in terms of the 414 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:45,620 materialistic paradigm that your 415 00:17:49,060 --> 00:17:47,210 consciousness is purely a product your 416 00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:49,070 brain that you are this biological robot 417 00:17:52,899 --> 00:17:50,480 I mean I think that's violated a number 418 00:17:56,499 --> 00:17:52,909 of ways but would you say that this is 419 00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:56,509 clearly violated by your experience with 420 00:18:00,570 --> 00:17:58,190 Auto Body experience in helping other 421 00:18:03,549 --> 00:18:00,580 people or is there some way that maybe 422 00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:03,559 somewhat of a materialistic explanation 423 00:18:08,529 --> 00:18:06,559 for this phenomena is possible I tend to 424 00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:08,539 lean towards that it's a combination 425 00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:10,820 I tend I tend to think that it's maybe 426 00:18:17,379 --> 00:18:14,990 not either/or I think that maybe there 427 00:18:19,299 --> 00:18:17,389 are factors that are dependent upon the 428 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:19,309 brain and that there are factors that 429 00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:22,250 are extended beyond the brain I tend to 430 00:18:28,110 --> 00:18:25,580 see it something like that I don't think 431 00:18:30,399 --> 00:18:28,120 that the the type of consciousness 432 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:30,409 experienced when out of the body is 433 00:18:37,269 --> 00:18:33,190 identical to the type of consciousness 434 00:18:40,749 --> 00:18:37,279 experienced within the body it often has 435 00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:40,759 actually more capabilities and more more 436 00:18:46,299 --> 00:18:43,100 possibilities than than you would have 437 00:18:49,269 --> 00:18:46,309 in your in your everyday reality if a 438 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:49,279 student I was coaching online and just 439 00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:51,710 yesterday was talking about an 440 00:18:58,119 --> 00:18:54,830 experience she had where all of her 441 00:19:00,970 --> 00:18:58,129 sensory awareness in fact her sense of 442 00:19:03,580 --> 00:19:00,980 reality itself was more heightened and 443 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:03,590 more precise in the experience she had 444 00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:08,690 than in in everyday reality on a on a 445 00:19:12,909 --> 00:19:10,070 broader level that I think it's 446 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:12,919 definitely the case that there appears 447 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:15,289 to be something happening beyond the 448 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:18,350 physical brain for sure I I can't see 449 00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,490 any other way to approach it really when 450 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:24,080 when you're when you're dealing with 451 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:26,510 people who are flatlined for example in 452 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:29,960 India deaf experience situations and and 453 00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:34,330 even even within the the whole OBE 454 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:36,470 literature these experiences where 455 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:39,560 people are so far beyond any way that 456 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:41,390 they could be working in as in a sensory 457 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:43,760 context it was somewhat of a lobbed 458 00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:45,890 question and maybe that's unfair but I 459 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:48,110 like your answer and especially the last 460 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:51,050 part one of the barriers to this I think 461 00:19:58,120 --> 00:19:55,610 is just how it's so obviously false your 462 00:20:00,160 --> 00:19:58,130 outside of your body having some kind of 463 00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:00,170 sensory experience without your senses 464 00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:03,740 it's clearly violating the mind the mind 465 00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:05,630 equal brain paradigm that we're in 466 00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:08,240 because it's so rigid the materialism as 467 00:20:13,810 --> 00:20:11,180 we understand it as it's taught in our 468 00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:13,820 science curriculum throughout high 469 00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:15,740 school and universities is so rigid that 470 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:18,020 of course this violates it and the 471 00:20:22,570 --> 00:20:21,230 obvious nough sometimes makes it a 472 00:20:24,220 --> 00:20:22,580 little bit hard where we have to kind of 473 00:20:25,540 --> 00:20:24,230 dance around and go well you know it 474 00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:25,550 could be this could be that it's like 475 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:28,160 but clear as you say it it might be a 476 00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:29,750 little this might be a little of that 477 00:20:34,270 --> 00:20:31,190 but at the end of the day we have to say 478 00:20:37,780 --> 00:20:34,280 clearly this violates the strict mind 479 00:20:39,730 --> 00:20:37,790 equals brain model for sure and actually 480 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:39,740 there's another area with all of this 481 00:20:43,660 --> 00:20:41,210 that I'm becoming increasingly 482 00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:43,670 interested in and that's the whole area 483 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:45,860 where people perceive an apparition of 484 00:20:50,260 --> 00:20:47,690 the person while they're out of their 485 00:20:53,530 --> 00:20:50,270 body which takes place both in in 486 00:20:56,110 --> 00:20:53,540 near-death studies and in and in OVA 487 00:20:58,720 --> 00:20:56,120 experiences some of my students have had 488 00:21:01,330 --> 00:20:58,730 situations where they've seen someone at 489 00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:01,340 they've they've been seen by say their 490 00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:03,740 close partner or whatever at another 491 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:06,560 location and that that opens up a whole 492 00:21:11,290 --> 00:21:08,930 nother area as well I mean in penny SAR 493 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:11,300 Tory's research as well they're one of 494 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:15,860 the significant cases was actually a man 495 00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:19,970 who received his sister and the sister 496 00:21:24,370 --> 00:21:22,190 had actually passed away but he didn't 497 00:21:26,890 --> 00:21:24,380 know that and he was at the point of 498 00:21:30,820 --> 00:21:26,900 dying and he was communicating in the 499 00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:30,830 ward with his sister and then I think it 500 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:33,320 was about a week later he found that his 501 00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:36,440 sister had actually died so that there's 502 00:21:43,030 --> 00:21:39,740 as these factors the really challenged 503 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:43,040 and and open up this whole area even 504 00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,680 even beyond the idea that just 505 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:47,840 consciousness and the experience of the 506 00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:49,970 individual but the experience of other 507 00:21:55,660 --> 00:21:52,790 people as well and and this interesting 508 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:55,670 factor of they often perceive the person 509 00:21:59,320 --> 00:21:57,170 as they actually are at that particular 510 00:22:02,550 --> 00:21:59,330 point in time even down to their clothes 511 00:22:05,470 --> 00:22:02,560 which is interesting again because well 512 00:22:07,030 --> 00:22:05,480 why would you be wearing clothes in this 513 00:22:09,730 --> 00:22:07,040 kind of context I've had I've heard 514 00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:09,740 skeptics bring this kind of idea up or 515 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:12,620 why why would a ghost wear clothes or 516 00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:15,530 why would a an OBE person be wearing 517 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:17,000 clothes while they're out of the body 518 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:18,890 but if you look at it in terms of the 519 00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:22,250 consciousness concept then we think of 520 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:24,350 ourselves we project ourselves we 521 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:26,510 experience ourselves in terms of 522 00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:29,510 memories and things like that as wearing 523 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:31,040 clothes so if we're dealing with some 524 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:33,380 kind of consciousness at a distance then 525 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:34,730 it would make sense that we would 526 00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:37,910 project some image of ourselves as we 527 00:22:43,660 --> 00:22:40,670 understand ourselves so there's this 528 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:43,670 hole of a other area that I find very 529 00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:46,490 fascinating related to all of this or 530 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:50,000 they are somehow projecting with us or 531 00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:51,920 interacting with us but it always do I 532 00:22:56,530 --> 00:22:53,630 agree with you it does always seem like 533 00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:56,540 a rather strange objection on the part 534 00:23:03,490 --> 00:22:59,360 of a skeptic it's to kind of jump past 535 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:03,500 the unbelievable nature of experiencing 536 00:23:08,830 --> 00:23:05,080 something outside of your body and then 537 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:08,840 focus on a detail of the clothes or the 538 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:11,810 the particular style of the clothes why 539 00:23:15,070 --> 00:23:13,610 would they wear a robe you know I think 540 00:23:16,990 --> 00:23:15,080 interesting but you you've kind of 541 00:23:19,210 --> 00:23:17,000 opened up another area the whole other 542 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:19,220 area that I think is important that we 543 00:23:23,890 --> 00:23:21,950 get into a little bit because for the 544 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:23,900 most part your book takes a very I guess 545 00:23:27,610 --> 00:23:26,210 you'd almost say secular approach to 546 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:27,620 out-of-body experience 547 00:23:33,820 --> 00:23:31,370 but I'm compelled to kind of drive into 548 00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:33,830 this question of the spiritual and it 549 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:36,860 came up in my last episode with Rupert 550 00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:38,150 Sheldrake and unfortunately you haven't 551 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:39,260 had a chance to listen to that because 552 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:42,050 it's still being edited but can we 553 00:23:45,670 --> 00:23:43,490 really remove ourselves from the 554 00:23:48,509 --> 00:23:45,680 spiritual questions here because they 555 00:23:51,209 --> 00:23:48,519 just seemed to be so pressing to me and 556 00:23:54,899 --> 00:23:51,219 and their monumental I think they're at 557 00:23:57,479 --> 00:23:54,909 the core of our our culture really and 558 00:23:59,820 --> 00:23:57,489 they're really at the core of of science 559 00:24:01,560 --> 00:23:59,830 although that's obscured a lot times 560 00:24:03,239 --> 00:24:01,570 because we get in these really 561 00:24:06,239 --> 00:24:03,249 ridiculous sidetrack debates about 562 00:24:08,159 --> 00:24:06,249 evolution or about religion and all the 563 00:24:10,409 --> 00:24:08,169 rest of these but I think fundamentally 564 00:24:13,889 --> 00:24:10,419 this is the question we've tasked 565 00:24:18,239 --> 00:24:13,899 science with who are we and then when we 566 00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:18,249 get answers that point us in a spiritual 567 00:24:22,949 --> 00:24:20,529 direction I mean apparitions like you're 568 00:24:24,989 --> 00:24:22,959 talking about are people being deceased 569 00:24:27,149 --> 00:24:24,999 and their consciousness being embodied 570 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:27,159 and some I can't even say embodied 571 00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:28,329 because we don't know where that 572 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:29,919 consciousness is but it seems to be able 573 00:24:35,639 --> 00:24:33,129 to interact with us you know to what 574 00:24:37,709 --> 00:24:35,649 extent do we really need to put those 575 00:24:40,349 --> 00:24:37,719 issues first and tackle and try and 576 00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:40,359 understand that spiritual territory in 577 00:24:46,729 --> 00:24:43,809 its broadest sense well I I see them as 578 00:24:49,139 --> 00:24:46,739 interrelated really I don't see I 579 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:49,149 suppose I don't see the spiritual as 580 00:24:53,849 --> 00:24:51,369 implying the supernatural if if that's 581 00:24:59,699 --> 00:24:53,859 what you're getting at I think I think 582 00:25:02,609 --> 00:24:59,709 for me the spiritual is this this level 583 00:25:05,099 --> 00:25:02,619 of conscious awareness or this idea of 584 00:25:07,729 --> 00:25:05,109 growth and progression and change that 585 00:25:10,589 --> 00:25:07,739 that takes place through all of these 586 00:25:13,199 --> 00:25:10,599 natural factors of reality you know I 587 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:13,209 think that if that the consciousness 588 00:25:18,539 --> 00:25:16,089 seems to be extended beyond the body in 589 00:25:20,909 --> 00:25:18,549 that we experience all of these things 590 00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:20,919 without the body and and whatever I 591 00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:23,950 think that there's just this underlying 592 00:25:29,789 --> 00:25:26,409 aspect it seems to nature and I think 593 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:29,799 that that that factor will be identified 594 00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,190 and and learnt more about as time goes 595 00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:35,200 on through this kind of science but 596 00:25:39,479 --> 00:25:37,629 isn't it don't we by definition talking 597 00:25:41,729 --> 00:25:39,489 about the supernatural talking about 598 00:25:45,419 --> 00:25:41,739 something beyond nature because nature 599 00:25:48,509 --> 00:25:45,429 is this box that we've drawn around in 600 00:25:51,239 --> 00:25:48,519 science so we can kind of re-engineer 601 00:25:54,479 --> 00:25:51,249 those terms but I think we're talking 602 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:54,489 about supernatural mmm I think I think 603 00:25:59,899 --> 00:25:57,369 the the definition of nature has maybe 604 00:26:02,070 --> 00:25:59,909 broadened from that kind of idea since 605 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:02,080 quantum physics and 606 00:26:08,370 --> 00:26:05,650 and areas like that because a lot a lot 607 00:26:12,450 --> 00:26:08,380 of the the notions of how things would 608 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:12,460 have worked but in the past I think have 609 00:26:17,790 --> 00:26:16,090 now expanded beyond beyond that you know 610 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:17,800 I don't think we're limited to saying 611 00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:20,050 that everything is black and white and 612 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:23,260 works in a very mechanical way I think I 613 00:26:28,410 --> 00:26:25,210 think quantum physics has framed that 614 00:26:31,710 --> 00:26:28,420 kind of idea out so I think now we're 615 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:31,720 still very much exploring how those 616 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:34,260 interconnections might work on a very 617 00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:37,510 very very tiny level and I think that 618 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:41,220 that might open up these these 619 00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:44,230 understandings of of what's going on in 620 00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:47,320 in a in a new way so what might have 621 00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:49,750 seemed supernatural I think maybe I just 622 00:26:54,150 --> 00:26:52,360 see that eventually that kind of idea 623 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:54,160 will just become part of the natural 624 00:27:01,290 --> 00:26:56,530 part of the the world that we understand 625 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:01,300 by I I think that the OBEs and things 626 00:27:07,620 --> 00:27:05,740 like that will probably be be some kind 627 00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:07,630 of interconnection like Brian Joseph 628 00:27:10,890 --> 00:27:08,350 scens 629 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:10,900 biological utilization of content on the 630 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:13,150 gravity this idea that where there are 631 00:27:19,230 --> 00:27:15,070 neurons there are brains that our minds 632 00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:19,240 are extended beyond our beyond the brain 633 00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:22,270 itself through some kind of quantum 634 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:26,140 mechanism see that's interesting your 635 00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:28,750 answer is very much in line with doctor 636 00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:30,280 Rupert Sheldrake there so you guys are 637 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:33,400 on the same page and and I'm not I'm not 638 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:37,090 against that I just I think that once we 639 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:40,570 cross that chasm we we have to start 640 00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:43,690 trying to incorporate in a whole bunch 641 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:46,060 of other experiences that before we've 642 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:47,890 just kind of left on the sidelines and I 643 00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:50,110 don't I I just don't know how we can 644 00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:51,520 walk that fine line the fine line that 645 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:53,740 you're walking in terms of okay 646 00:27:59,700 --> 00:27:57,490 don't worry science in quotes science 647 00:28:01,680 --> 00:27:59,710 will figure this out eventually I think 648 00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:01,690 once we cross that line then we have to 649 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,520 talk about a little bit you know we're 650 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:05,200 talking about Robert Bruce you know and 651 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:07,650 his experience or I was mentioning 652 00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:09,970 Marilyn Hughes a former guest on this 653 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:12,550 show with out-of-body travel Institute 654 00:28:16,409 --> 00:28:15,670 or something like that but really a lot 655 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:16,419 of her ideas on 656 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:17,769 very strange but I have to tell you in 657 00:28:21,539 --> 00:28:19,840 the experiences I've had with her she's 658 00:28:23,729 --> 00:28:21,549 demonstrated to me some rather 659 00:28:26,060 --> 00:28:23,739 remarkable abilities well both those 660 00:28:29,369 --> 00:28:26,070 people talk about a much more rich 661 00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:29,379 spiritual landscape that they feel like 662 00:28:33,479 --> 00:28:31,840 they've traversed and come come back and 663 00:28:35,849 --> 00:28:33,489 tell us about and they'll tell you about 664 00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:35,859 lower levels they'll tell you about 665 00:28:40,979 --> 00:28:38,200 different kinds of beings including what 666 00:28:43,739 --> 00:28:40,989 we would call evil or demonic beings and 667 00:28:45,899 --> 00:28:43,749 then hierarchical beings up to things 668 00:28:47,399 --> 00:28:45,909 that we would associate with a lot of 669 00:28:49,229 --> 00:28:47,409 religious traditions or they'll tell you 670 00:28:51,509 --> 00:28:49,239 directly that they're related to some 671 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:51,519 religious traditions so I guess my point 672 00:28:58,019 --> 00:28:54,850 is you know I think I think we're 673 00:29:00,840 --> 00:28:58,029 obligated to really take that stuff much 674 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:00,850 more seriously once we cross over and 675 00:29:07,139 --> 00:29:03,609 say yes this really is happening in a 676 00:29:09,349 --> 00:29:07,149 way that we think is real or scientific 677 00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:09,359 then I think these things come into play 678 00:29:14,639 --> 00:29:12,609 and I don't know how we can really have 679 00:29:17,999 --> 00:29:14,649 such a wall and say well you know it's 680 00:29:20,249 --> 00:29:18,009 all gonna be explained oh sure I mean I 681 00:29:23,369 --> 00:29:20,259 I I don't I don't feel there's a wall I 682 00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:23,379 feel that I I've explored a lot of those 683 00:29:28,859 --> 00:29:26,710 kinds of ideas I mean I've studied the 684 00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:28,869 Kabbalistic interpretations of this 685 00:29:31,710 --> 00:29:30,399 stuff I've looked at the astral 686 00:29:34,919 --> 00:29:31,720 projection in literature 687 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:34,929 theosophy you know all these all these 688 00:29:42,239 --> 00:29:39,850 different areas I I've studied them over 689 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:42,249 the years I've been interested in this 690 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:44,529 kind of area and was probably less 691 00:29:50,220 --> 00:29:47,769 scientific in the past but more and more 692 00:29:53,009 --> 00:29:50,230 I found that those things just didn't 693 00:29:54,779 --> 00:29:53,019 hold up didn't hold up in terms of as 694 00:29:57,210 --> 00:29:54,789 you went and tried to explore them 695 00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:57,220 yourself and and validate them 696 00:30:01,349 --> 00:29:59,470 you couldn't personally validate which i 697 00:30:03,479 --> 00:30:01,359 think is that what you're saying but not 698 00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:03,489 just me personally also the people I 699 00:30:08,159 --> 00:30:05,470 work with and it became more and more 700 00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,169 common that that I was realizing that a 701 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:10,480 lot of the preconceptions I mean a 702 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:12,850 classic one that that you can talk about 703 00:30:17,310 --> 00:30:15,609 for example is the silver cord when you 704 00:30:19,289 --> 00:30:17,320 read astral projection literature the 705 00:30:22,049 --> 00:30:19,299 silver cord is constantly mentioned 706 00:30:24,029 --> 00:30:22,059 throughout the literature for going 707 00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:24,039 right back probably to Muldoon and 708 00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:27,190 Carrington's famous book in the 1930s 709 00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:30,310 and whatever so you've got this I 710 00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:32,950 dear the silver cord being there but 711 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:34,750 then when I've actually worked with 712 00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:40,330 people they pretty much unanimously say 713 00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:43,120 to me I haven't seen a silver cord I 714 00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:45,070 haven't experienced one what's going on 715 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:46,990 what's going wrong is sometimes what 716 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:49,810 they say to me I think we get into we 717 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:51,730 get into a problematic area my first 718 00:30:58,380 --> 00:30:55,690 teacher when I was around 15 turned 719 00:31:00,990 --> 00:30:58,390 around to me one day and said Albert of 720 00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:01,000 course you can't see in color when you 721 00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:02,620 have your out-of-body experiences can 722 00:31:09,870 --> 00:31:05,830 you and I looked at him quite confused 723 00:31:11,730 --> 00:31:09,880 by that but because of his his ideas 724 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:11,740 that he'd drawn from Alice Bailey in 725 00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:14,050 various Theosophical traditions he 726 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:17,470 believed that you had to be over 18 or a 727 00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:20,890 level of maturity before he would be 728 00:31:26,580 --> 00:31:23,830 able to see in color my experience was 729 00:31:29,270 --> 00:31:26,590 colorful from the beginning my very 730 00:31:33,870 --> 00:31:29,280 first Oh bees were very colorful and 731 00:31:38,970 --> 00:31:33,880 even rich blue energy was around me when 732 00:31:42,510 --> 00:31:38,980 I had my first I ve when I was around 14 733 00:31:45,150 --> 00:31:42,520 so it you know I started to question a 734 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:45,160 lot of that kind of ideas so it was more 735 00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:47,470 it's not that I've ever dismissed it 736 00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:49,750 it's more that I've tried to say what is 737 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:51,940 this really what's going on and tried to 738 00:31:57,510 --> 00:31:55,420 really dig beyond the preconceptions and 739 00:31:59,730 --> 00:31:57,520 step outside of the box a bit and say 740 00:32:02,340 --> 00:31:59,740 well you know what might actually be 741 00:32:05,130 --> 00:32:02,350 going on rather than just going with the 742 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:05,140 pre pre assumption that oh it's it's all 743 00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:09,250 spiritual and demons and angels and that 744 00:32:16,050 --> 00:32:12,460 kind of thing if I saw those things or 745 00:32:18,780 --> 00:32:16,060 if if I saw consistency across cultures 746 00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:18,790 and with everyone I worked with I would 747 00:32:24,390 --> 00:32:20,980 take those things on board but the thing 748 00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:24,400 is is I don't see that so it it doesn't 749 00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:26,470 give me a strong reason to take them on 750 00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:26,920 board 751 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:30,100 great well so Graham for folks who are 752 00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:32,080 interested in getting their hands on 753 00:32:36,090 --> 00:32:34,390 navigating the out-of-body experience 754 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:36,100 how do they do that is it is it an 755 00:32:39,870 --> 00:32:38,200 Amazon sure it's on Amazon in the UK can 756 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:39,880 you also get it from Amazon on the US 757 00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:42,010 well actually it was published in the 758 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:43,660 u.s. through Llewellyn's 759 00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:46,210 it's it's got very good distribution so 760 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:48,220 it should be in bookshops and on Amazon 761 00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:49,930 and great so it's easier to get in the 762 00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:52,390 US then they get in the UK huh it is 763 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:56,140 indeed yeah and tell folks a little bit 764 00:32:59,370 --> 00:32:57,850 about your personal training because I 765 00:33:02,700 --> 00:32:59,380 understand you're still doing that for 766 00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,710 people who want to personally have the 767 00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:04,720 best chance of having this kind of 768 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:05,500 experience 769 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:07,810 yeah I've developed that whole program 770 00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:10,510 quite a lot so now now I work you know 771 00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:12,640 in a one-on-one way with people over 772 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:15,670 over a month or two months or however 773 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:18,520 long they want to work and they get to 774 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:21,130 use my name preliminary sound technology 775 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:23,410 through that as well and yeah I just 776 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:25,510 guide them through work with a 777 00:33:32,730 --> 00:33:29,770 personalized program use a diary that 778 00:33:36,570 --> 00:33:32,740 they can put notes in and then we you 779 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:36,580 know improve and go step by step through 780 00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:39,370 the process to the easiest way to find 781 00:33:42,990 --> 00:33:41,470 you probably Graham Nichols OBE would 782 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:43,000 probably get you there on and a Google 783 00:33:46,410 --> 00:33:43,450 search 784 00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:46,420 sure just Graham Nichols home it's this 785 00:33:53,130 --> 00:33:49,720 it comes up top saying awesome with two 786 00:33:54,990 --> 00:33:53,140 L's the two L's okay great you've 787 00:33:58,140 --> 00:33:55,000 mentioned that you've tried to make 788 00:34:00,990 --> 00:33:58,150 connections with researchers to move 789 00:34:03,780 --> 00:34:01,000 this forward in the lab any prospects 790 00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:03,790 for that in the near future I was 791 00:34:08,909 --> 00:34:06,400 talking to a couple of researchers in 792 00:34:11,070 --> 00:34:08,919 the UK who are interested in doing a bit 793 00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:11,080 of research but waiting to see what 794 00:34:17,850 --> 00:34:13,990 happens on that I'm also doing some 795 00:34:21,389 --> 00:34:17,860 research with the infra liminal sound in 796 00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:21,399 terms of beneficial applications for 797 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:23,800 that working with people with various 798 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:25,450 problems like drug addiction and things 799 00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:27,580 like that because it seems to get people 800 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:30,730 to a very positive balancing state of 801 00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:33,010 awareness which seems to help with those 802 00:34:37,139 --> 00:34:35,200 kinds of things it's already been tried 803 00:34:39,659 --> 00:34:37,149 with a small group and there's a 804 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,669 possibly a pilot study happening in 805 00:34:44,610 --> 00:34:42,159 around six months in Ireland so there's 806 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:44,620 a there's a few exciting things on the 807 00:34:50,399 --> 00:34:47,370 horizon with that well Graham it's 808 00:34:52,649 --> 00:34:50,409 fascinating work and a great book I hope 809 00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:52,659 everyone gets a gets a copy of it and 810 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:54,639 try some of these techniques but you 811 00:34:57,450 --> 00:34:56,649 have to create some space in your life 812 00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:57,460 and 813 00:35:01,049 --> 00:34:59,200 get into that mode where you can really 814 00:35:02,849 --> 00:35:01,059 relax and let go a little bit which was 815 00:35:04,770 --> 00:35:02,859 a challenge for me but I think it's 816 00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:04,780 really worthwhile that's the luck with 817 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:06,430 the book and thanks so much for joining 818 00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:09,150 me today thank you you're welcome 819 00:35:12,930 --> 00:35:11,260 thanks again to Graham for joining me 820 00:35:14,579 --> 00:35:12,940 today on skeptic Oh a couple of 821 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:14,589 questions to tee up from this interview 822 00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:17,170 the first would be what are we to make 823 00:35:22,650 --> 00:35:20,160 of Graham's extraordinary out-of-body 824 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:22,660 experiences now I have to tell you I've 825 00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:24,250 known Graham for several years and he's 826 00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:25,750 always come across to me as a very 827 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:28,630 credible guy nothing he said and in the 828 00:35:33,089 --> 00:35:30,730 class that I did with him has ever made 829 00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:33,099 me question that in any way as a matter 830 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:34,960 of fact it's only bolstered my feeling 831 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:37,690 that he is legit he is who he says he is 832 00:35:43,950 --> 00:35:40,150 at the same time I wonder how we can 833 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:43,960 really analyze his experience and how we 834 00:35:49,319 --> 00:35:47,290 can compare it with other experiences 835 00:35:51,210 --> 00:35:49,329 maybe we can't maybe we can maybe these 836 00:35:53,549 --> 00:35:51,220 experiences are so personal that they 837 00:35:55,770 --> 00:35:53,559 can only have personal meaning but then 838 00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:55,780 again that's why I think we approach 839 00:36:00,030 --> 00:35:58,089 these topics in the way that we do from 840 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:00,040 skeptic Oh from a scientific standpoint 841 00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:02,410 and that is because we want to compare 842 00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:04,540 and contrast them with other people who 843 00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:06,790 seem credible who have these experiences 844 00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:08,920 and maybe have a different take on them 845 00:36:12,890 --> 00:36:10,630 so I guess the question and all that 846 00:36:16,910 --> 00:36:12,900 wrapped up for a forum discussion is 847 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:16,920 what are we to make of the variety of 848 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:20,290 extraordinary paranormal experiences and 849 00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:23,950 what methodology can we use to kind of 850 00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:27,040 tease apart what's most for lack of a 851 00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:29,920 better term real and the second question 852 00:36:35,099 --> 00:36:32,020 that I tee up would come back to this 853 00:36:37,980 --> 00:36:35,109 issue of spirituality do you think that 854 00:36:41,609 --> 00:36:37,990 these Auto Body experiences might be 855 00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:41,619 happening in a non spiritual way might 856 00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:43,990 they be something akin to a natural 857 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:45,670 phenomena and how would we know 858 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:47,680 something like that so those questions 859 00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:50,290 might not be perfectly formed in the way 860 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:52,180 that I've said them so far but then 861 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:54,490 you'll have an opportunity to reform 862 00:36:58,650 --> 00:36:56,650 them and and recast them in the way that 863 00:37:01,049 --> 00:36:58,660 you see fit the place to do that of 864 00:37:04,980 --> 00:37:01,059 course is at The Skeptical website which 865 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:04,990 you'll find at ske pti k o com 866 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:06,490 don't forget the K in there and from 867 00:37:10,349 --> 00:37:08,650 there you can link to our forum you can 868 00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:10,359 add a comment to the comment section of 869 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:10,900 the website 870 00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:12,970 where you can track me down on Facebook 871 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:14,950 or via email well that's about it for 872 00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:16,510 today I have a number of interesting 873 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:18,400 interviews coming up we're gonna be 874 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:21,490 tackling a wide variety of topics in the 875 00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:24,310 next couple months as well as returning 876 00:37:30,060 --> 00:37:28,030 some old tried-and-true territory that I 877 00:37:32,730 --> 00:37:30,070 just can't get away from including 878 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:32,740 debates with atheists so stick around